Personal journeys of New Zealand researchers

Tēna koutou, tēna koutou, tēna koutou kātoa. Ko Kapuke Tamahaka te moana, Ko Pakahakia te awa, Ko Robert Henderson te waka. A ngalia Tipu. Aki ōki, o te pou ti. Ko Gary Evans toku Ingoa. Ngā mihi nui, kia koutou.

Kia Ora everybody, I'm Gary. I'm MBIE's chief science advisor. And originally, I'm from Dunedin. I grew up in northeast valley, in Dunedin and went to university there, where I did my PhD in synthetic organic chemistry, which kind of sounds interesting, It is, it really is interesting. Here we are at Callaghan Innovation, I suppose around 2018, I saw an advertisement that he'd be put out for a chief science advisor, and I kind of was aware of the chief science advisors. I was certainly aware of the Prime Minister's chief science adviser who at the time was Juliete Gerrard actually turned out that I spent or knew her from the University of Oxford when I was there as a postdoc, and she was doing a default. And so I was kind of vaguely aware of these roles of science advisors, you know, providing, I suppose, evidence to inform policy generation within the ministry.

And so I thought, Gosh, I'll apply for this, I kind of won a couple of awards as part of the work I've done. And so, you know, it was peer esteem, I suppose. My peers tended to think that what I did was, okay, published a lot of papers. So the research community, you know, at least thought that what I was doing was an appropriate standard. And so, and I was really interested in how do we increase the amount of research science innovation funding we have in this country. You know, the moment I forget, when I started out was maybe 1.3% of GDP are spent on research science innovation, it's now about 1.4% is certainly nothing to do with what I've been doing here while at MBIE, but we need to increase that we need to get it up to, you know, 2%, at least which is the current government target. And so currently, I'm the chief science advisor at Hīkina Whakatutuki, or MBIE.

When I first arrived at Hīkina Whakatutuki I was very lucky to have a very talented advisor who was working within the Science Leadership Team, which I was leading. And the real focus for her and for the team at that time was around issues of equity, diversity inclusion, just how do we get a more diverse research science innovation workforce, we've got a lot of really crazy existential crises that have come like the pandemic, we obviously have climate change. And if we're going to come up with solutions to meet the opportunities and challenge that those types of crises present, and we need really diverse ways of thinking, we need people from diverse backgrounds with really diverse contexts and in terms of how they've grown up and the way in which they think about problems. Otherwise, we're really hamstringing ourselves.

In the end, a lot of those institutions are actually very sophisticated already doing fantastic work and in that space in terms of building greater equity into their processes and systems, ensuring that they had more diverse staff interacting with what is a very obviously diverse student body. And we really just wanted to get alongside them rather than tell them what to do. So that's been a really fruitful experience working alongside the peak bodies like Science NZ, Like universities New Zealand, and the Independent Research Association of New Zealand has been absolutely fantastic. And I think that's where I've been thrilled. And it's a long journey. We're nowhere near there its just building those processes support, equal diversity, inclusion and our research science innovation institutions.

Alongside that there's been a real focus on Māori and on expanding vision Mātauranga. The Vision Mātauranga policy is one that's probably 15 years old, at least, is probably not as sophisticated as it needs to be in this in these modern days. And Charles Royal did a fantastic job kicking that off. And so what we've been trying to do as a ministry is get more capability on the ground.

My name is Lucy Stewart; I’m a marine microbiologist at GNS Science. At undergraduate, I went to the University of Canterbury and I did a BSc Honours in biology and I then went overseas to the US to the University of Massachusetts Amherst and I did a PhD in microbiology.

My work during my PhD studies was mostly looking at the microbiology of deep-sea hydrothermal vents. So there’s are environments where because of volcanism at the bottom of the ocean, you get hot water coming out and it creates environments where special kinds of microbes live, which I studied, and I then approached someone in New Zealand about writing a post-doctoral fellowship proposal for funding for two years – to look at some hydrothermal vents which are located to the north of New Zealand and also hot springs and the microbes that grow in them, in some islands to the north of New Zealand. So the Kermadec Islands, Raoul Island and Curtis Island.

So I came to GNS with that funding for two years and then while I was at GNS I got involved with another proposal to study the microbiology of still the deep sea, but this time microbes that live in methane seeps, which where methane naturally seeps out of the ocean, and there’s microbes that eat it. And there’s proposals to mine that methane, and so I’m looking at if we did do that – what would the environmental impacts be on both the microbes that live in these areas but then the wider ecology that actually depends on microbes to provide energy for them.

[MBIE asks “What barriers did you encounter when making the transition to a research career?”]

I came to university knowing I wanted to do research science, so I was quite focused on that goal. The big problem really, both in going to the US and then coming back to New Zealand, have been the big problem for everyone which is finding funding. So to go to the US, I could only afford to do that for a PhD if it was going to be a university with a fully funded program and there are not that many of them. It’s like any job really, where you can get the job defines where you can go. And coming back to New Zealand, I was again very lucky – I got a Rutherford Post-Doctoral fellowship. They offered seven in the year I got one; normally it’s more like five. It used to be they offered a hundred a year, in New Zealand and that was the primary source, and now there’s five. So if I hadn’t got that I probably would’ve left science, just because of the limited opportunities to do the kind of work I do.

If you did your PhD in New Zealand, you really have to go overseas to do post-doc so that hugely changes the way New Zealanders do science because they are basically obliged to go overseas to get jobs and experience before they’re qualified for jobs here. And this wasn’t a problem for me, I was very lucky, but particularly for people who have family obligations or disabilities that mean it’s very difficult for them to go overseas, that’s a huge barrier.

At the University level, women are now most students. So we had about 75% female PhD students in my programme, there were only three female professors out of about fifteen in the faculty and all of them had had children in their forties, essentially because they couldn’t take time off to have kids before they had permanent jobs which they’d finally had at the university they were at.

There is a persistent drop off as people progress through their careers. And I think this is, it’s due to the same reasons that women face issues in other careers, it’s made very hard for them to integrate family life and work life.

[MBIE asks “What progress do you think there has been to promote diversity?”]

While it’s improved a lot since the mid-twentieth century, a lot of areas of academia – the people who run it are the older people who have a lot of publications. And so there’s kind of a self- perpetuating cycle where some of them are great, and some of them they pick people to mentor who look and are like them, they promote the peers of people who are like them, and so women keep coming in and trying for a few years and going – you know what I can’t be bother being the person who has to break the cycle, it’s too much work, and moving into other careers.

The places where its worked successfully and I have seen them are places where they pro-actively recruit more than one woman and more than one person of colour and give people communities. Because being the only black professor, or the only Maori professor, or the only woman on the staff is really tough.

[MBIE asks “What would you like to see to encourage more diversity in Science?”]

Ultimately in New Zealand, we just need more money in research, if we’re going to have more people in research; we have to have more money. Both institutions and academia have to pro-actively work to change the balance if they think they don’t have enough diversity. They cannot rely on merit. They have to go out there say our goal is to hire women; our goal is we’re going to hire Maori researchers.

[MBIE logo fades out to reveal a head and shoulders shot of Dr Kelly Dombroski, Rutherford Fellow Researcher.]

My name is Kelly Dombroski. And I'm a Rutherford fellow, working at Massey University in the area of human geography.

[MBIE asks "What is human geography?"]

Human Geography is really about studying the relationships between people in place or humans and nature, however you want to describe it. But I'm really interested in economics, economic geography, feminist economic geography, and looking at how the way we organize our economy affects the environment, and how the environments that we live in also affect the economy. I mean, they're really not seperate things at all.

[MBIE asks: "What did you study to become one?"]

I did my undergraduate degree, actually at Massey university, I did a BA in environmental studies. And then I did a master's in Development Studies, also at Massey University, and then I went overseas to do my PhD, started at the Australian National University and then moved to Western Sydney University during it then did a PhD in geography, and got to work with some amazing international researchers as part of that experience - Funded by the Australian Government.

[MBIE asks: "How did you find the transistion into a full time career?"]

Um, I had 2 children during my PhD. And so the PhD. process was was also very, what's the word required a high level of management in skills in project management. So I actually found the transition from PhD to being a lecturer and my first job in Australia was great, because I had money. That makes a lot of problems go away. But I think the transition I found difficult as my first job, my youngest child was only just turned 1 and I had to commute 2 hours across the city. And I had classes that started at 8am. And that was very difficult in terms of managing childcare and managing the relationship with my then breastfeeding daughter. And just trying to keep a work life balance between that long commute and in the family at home. Yeah.

[MBIE asks: Do you think there are fewer barriers for women now?"]

Well, I mean, that's a great question. I think I did my study and my first job in Australia. And actually, it was incredibly what I feel compared to New Zealand, it was incredibly privileged because I had paid parental leave during my scholarship for my PhD. So when I had a baby, 3 months, pay leave, which was, you know, not enough, but enough to, you know, not start, right, because you can't really study when you've got this tiny being that you're having to look after. And then when I had my third child, I was employed in Australian University. And I was actually only on fixed term contracts. But because I'd been employed on a series of fixed term contracts over more than whatever the limit was a couple of years, I actually got 6 months, full pay, even though my contract was terminating. So the 6 months full pay went past the end of my contract, because they recognize that you couldn't find a new job when you your contract finished in the middle of your parental leave. So that that was amazing.

And then last time, you talked to me, I was pregnant with my fourth child, and I had that fourth child in the New Zealand system. And I had a horrible shock. You know, the parental leave, was capped at below minimum wage. And I'm the sole earner, and my family that was about to welcome a fourth child into the family. It's not like my husband could just run out and get a job quickly, just to cover my parental leave. And so I had 9 weeks of full pay from the university. And then I wasn't able to take up the government leave, because I had a mortgage by that time, and 3 other children who needed food and, you know, transport and all of the things that make a household work. So I had to go back to work at 9 weeks. And that was harder than my first transition into employment, because I was by that stage had a lot of responsibility in university, a lot of teaching responsibility, I had funded research projects on the go, and deadlines to meet milestones to meet.

So that period was extremely, extremely difficult for me, yeah, and for my husband as well, who had to take this 9 week old baby and basically bring him to me all the feeds and manage all of that. So I had a very supportive department. And once I told them what was happening and kind of asked for help, my head of school, Head of Department recommended that I apply for sabbatical. And I had a book that was due during that time. And so I applied for sabbatical to work on that book, even though I'd had some leave the previous year and my head of school supported it.

So I had a further sort of 4 months where I didn't have to teach. But I still had to work. And that really made such a difference. I've had colleagues, other parts of New Zealand who've had to go straight back into teaching at 9 weeks. And you know, you're not even, you're not even healed from the birth at that point, right.

So some things have changed, you know, New Zealand now has longer paid parental leave than when I had my fourth child, but it still capped it below minimum wage. So that is an incredible barrier for for women in particular, but also for men, because the men, you know, or fathers cannot take up or even co mothers right cannot take up that childcare role if they don't have access to leave. That's reasonable, that's a reasonable pay rate, Yeah. And that just perpetuates women have to care for children and men don't - Rather than more like the Scandinavian system where men are required to take up that parental leave or lose it. So we've still got a long way to go.

That's right. And in fact, my husband wasn't entitled to any leave because he was a stay at home parent. So obviously, you know, there's no payments coming in for his for his work caring for the children. Yeah. A lot of people have it worse than me, but we still need to change it.

[MBIE asks: "Have you seen progress in promoting diversity in your workplace and/or sector?"]

Yeah, I think it's really important that a lot of researchers have been looking into particularly in the case of parental leave, and woman researchers in New Zealand, and there's a lot of really good research coming out at the moment showing the evidence for the effects of these policies. And so I think that's progress. And I think that's really important. Some universities have tried to say, well, we need to have more metrics. And then we can measure exactly how much women have contributed. And then we can have fairer policies. But I don't actually think that that's the way the way to do it.

But 1 of the most positive things I've seen, and the reason I was able to get Rutherford fellowship, in fact, is the Rutherford fellowship and other Royal Society fellowships have made a declaration, I guess that is for for every child that you have, you get 2 years added to your Early Career Research status. So for me, I finished my PhD in 2013. And I got the Rutherford in 2021, it was the last year of my early career researcher status. But because I have quite a few children, actually, I could keep going for quite some time. But that 2 year period is just recognition that even if you're working full time, even if you went back to work at 9 weeks, you're I don't know if your productivity in those metrics has been affected, because you might be up all night breastfeeding, turning up in the morning, delivering your classes, I believe I still performed at my highest sort of quality level. But the time I can't stay up into the night writing a paper, I can't work in the weekends, I can't do those things that many academics use that extra time to stay, to kind of get ahead.

And that Rutherford fellowship is recognizing, you know, potential leaders in the research community. And I think if they hadn't had that recognition, for many people, it might exclude them from from that.

[MBIE asks: "Is there anything you'd like to see to help and encourage people into study, or a research career?"]

(The thing)... that comes to mind is parental leave, and I support the unions in New Zealand. But I do think the unions in Australia really pushed for that parental leave, 6 months paid parental leave, for all staff, not just permanent staff. All staff who had been on fixed term contracts inclusive.

And I think that would make incredible difference to families in Aotearoa New Zealand, that would, you know, give you space to recover from birth, you know, attach to your baby feed them, if you're able to breastfeed them till 6 months and before the solids are introduced, and then you've you've got that ability to hand them over to someone else to care for them once they're not so reliant on on 1 person. And I think that's a fair amount. And given... given all the extra work that we put into our jobs, I think we're kind of entitled to that support. Actually, most people still work the paper we published on parental leave.

Most people still work during the parental leave, but what it does is it removes the pressure to have to answer emails to have to turn up for class and gives you the space to to organize your life around a new family member, so that's the first thing, I think.

And then the other thing I think is the is the resourcing for workloads, you know, we're increasingly having more and more tasks to do with less and less staff in many departments. And that with COVID, you know, that the work people put into transition into courses online and looking after students who are in distress, that work was above and beyond what we would normally have to do. And I think what we're seeing now is people are burnt out from from 2 years of doing it and feeling like we need more resourcing from the government.

We need more resourcing from our universities to support people to, to pull back to take a breath to, you know, recharge, and to not constantly feel like they have to be working, you know, 10 hour days just to keep on top of things. Yeah. Those are my 2 things.

[MBIE asks: "What are you currently researching?"]

I'm, I'm researching caring economies. So my Rutherford project is titled transitioning to caring economies through transformative community investment. And I'm looking at the work that communities are already doing to transition us to a different form of economy that cares for humans and cares for the environment. And that work is folded into some work I've done with the national science challenges for building better homes, towns and cities. Working with Amanda Yates looking at how do we design for urban places that enhance Mauri so Mauri ora project, and those are the 2 things I'm spending my time on at the moment.

[Shot of Dr Dombroski fades out to be replaced by the MBIE logo.]

[MBIE logo fades out to show a head and shoulder shot of Dr Victoria Metcalf, Rutherford fallow scholar.]

Kia ora, I'm Victoria Metcalf. I'm currently Principal Advisor stakeholder engagement at Te Tāhuhu O Te Mā tauranga or the Ministry of Education. And although I'm not directly in the research sector at the moment, I like to play with doing research as a part of everything I'm doing. So I'm currently researching this practice, relationship building frameworks, in an Aotearoa context, especially with Maori and Pacific communities.

I really loved biology, English and Latin at school. And when I went on to university, I chose to do sciences and biology. And on my first year, I absolutely fell in love with what goes on inside cells and DNA. And so I did a biochemistry honours degree, love the research, did a PhD in biochemistry, looking at the evolution of a blood protein into Tuatara. And also a whole range of animals, including in Antarctic, fish, and then went on to post-docs and Antarctic fish, and also Salmon sperm.

[MBIE asks: "How did you make the transistion into a full-time research career?"]

I was always developing my science engagement and science communication, even at the beginning of my PhD, and that was a big passion for me. So eventually, I moved in to that space and out of the research sector per say, and have been developing that love of engagement and science communication, so it's easy.

[MBIE asks "Where there any barriers in the New Zealand science system that have hindered your efforts?"]

For me, the most obvious 1 has always been gender bias. And also juggling peer input with trying to balance a research career and the barriers that pop up. Things that helped were the support of colleagues and forming a network of allies, both women and men, in Aotearoa and internationally - It was enormously helpful. And also I'm a very stubborn, tenacious person. So even if I didn't see female role models ahead of me when I was wanting to do a PhD, I just went and did it anyway, because it's kind of how I am.

We also need to make sure that we recognize that diversity brings huge benefits to any system and really embrace that and recognize it for the value that it brings.

[Shot of Dr Victoria Metcalf fades out to be replaced by MBIE logo.]